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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6156
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Posted - 2014.07.07 03:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
Kept hearing about it and finally just said to hell with it and decided to put it to the test in the best way I could think of. Had done a similar test (on the same map no less) a few months ago so, me and Zatara Rought decided to give it a shot using similar methods.
Testing Methods
Both testers (myself and Zatara) were on the same team. This reduces constant damage dealing/death which gets in the way of progress and negatively impacts the team(s) more than necessary for testing purposes but still produces hit indicators (the 'x' that pops up when a shot hits it's target) reliably. This allowed for hit indicators to show when a round would hit, and shield flickers when a 'ghost hit' occurs.
For running tests, nanohives were placed 20m apart to form a 'track' in which Zatara would run along to insure a relatively straight path while I fired on him. This method allows for differentiation of hitbox lag caused by latency and true hit detection errors caused by the hitbox.
Testing Procedure
Caldari and Gallente Scout suits were fired at whilst standing still to check for 'silhouette' type hit detection errors. These sort of errors occur when firing at the outside edge of the body and the hitbox doesn't match up with the model. Both were relatively fine with the Caldari Scout having a very microscopic margin of error around the head/limbs, but it's so minute that you would probably never notice it in combat.
Caldari and Gallente Scout suits were fired at whilst running at a perpendicular angle. Most common factors here are hitbox lag which can occur from latency, I accounted for this at first (aiming behind Zatara) and there was very little to account for. There were quite a bit of 'ghost hits' in which the shields flickered but no hit marker was apparent, but this occurred on both suits.
Caldari and Gallente Scout suits were fired at whilst running at a parallel angle. There was very little margin of error here and from what I saw, both suits would taken damage normally if it we were on opposite teams, with less 'ghost hits' than in the perpendicular test.
Results/Thoughts
Both the scouts showed quite a few 'ghost hits' but I feel this is largely due to the hitbox trying to keep up with the rapid movements of the Scout, as both showed evidence of 'ghost hits' in the perpendicular tests. There is a very minor issue with the hitbox on the Scout not aligning with the outer most edges of the model, but this is so miniscule you would not likely notice it in combat.
Personally, I think this rumor stems from the fact that Caldari Scouts are reliant on shields and don't have enough low slots to utilize armor modules. This results in faster average movement speed compared to other scouts and even though the Minmatar Scout is technically faster, it has less survivability so hit detection issues, if any, would less noticeable in combat.
Feedback/Differing Theories
Feel like we botched something? Want to see it in slow-mo? Have a different idea on how to test for hit detection errors? Just wanna comment on Aeon's terrible [redacted] aim? Throw your suggestions in the comments below and we'll see about checking them out.
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Aeon Amadi for CPM1
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6160
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Posted - 2014.07.07 04:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
THUNDERGROOVE wrote:Unless you're in FW or on the opposite team then none of this maters. All of the hit detection issues that occur have the shield flare and flinch animation happen even if they take no damage.
Believe I mentioned that when describing 'ghost hits'.
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6161
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Posted - 2014.07.07 06:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:You need to be on enemy teams - I've gotten shield flare all the time but no damage.
Just finished recording a video where we are on enemy teams. Will upload it tomorrow.
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6161
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Posted - 2014.07.07 06:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:Lol as if this is a proper test.
You're welcome to suggest something of worthwhile value in place of criticism, just sayin' 
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6161
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Posted - 2014.07.07 07:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:Lol as if this is a proper test. You're welcome to suggest something of worthwhile value in place of criticism, just sayin' Record in game instances with Caldari Scouts. Has to be real field data.
Yeah, sorry, not going to record every single game. Unless you wanna pay for a new hard-drive and a fiber optic line that'll cover the constant uploads. Suppose we'll just never know and just have to believe the myth that Caldari Scouts are OP because hitbox conspiracy theories.
/shrug
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Aeon Amadi for CPM1
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6174
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Posted - 2014.07.07 17:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Have a different idea on how to test for hit detection errors?
Thank you for doing this, Aeon. We're not sure how or why, but rapid, lateral directional changes (such as figure eight strafe) seem to yield better results for the CalScout than other Scouts. Speed isn't at issue, as the Minmatar Scout is faster when strafing but does not reproduce the observed problems. Also, decloak animation is another prime suspect. This is most evident in CQC shotgun duels. Initial, on-target shotgun blasts miss the CalScout at a greater frequency than other Scouts, especially if the CalScout is decloaking. Here's Iggy's example footage in case you haven't seen it yet.
Thing about the Shotgun (not sure if this was changed, been a while since I did the test) is that the Shotgun spread doesn't cover all of the reticle. Had done a test with Rampage a while back regarding this but, like everything, it was panned.
At any rate, I'm officially awake now so I'mma upload the video where Zatara and I were on different teams. I had absolutely no problem hitting him at all save for one instance where he had a bit of elevation but I've -always- had problems hitting targets at a different elevation than me.
It'll be up soon.
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Aeon Amadi for CPM1
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6174
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 17:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
Sum1ne Else wrote:Awesome, great job- you can really see those markers of when they do and do not.
What is your X & Y in ADS at? you track him really well..
Sensitivity is at 30
ADS sensitivity is at 25
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6175
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Posted - 2014.07.07 19:21:00 -
[8] - Quote
Alright, here's the second test video that pretty much just goes to show that it's either latency based or you guys just suck at aiming like I do
Sarcasm aside, didn't notice much different in this video, other than the fact that it took significantly longer because I had to wait for Zatara's shields to come back up. There were a few instances of ghost hits but the majority of the time that damage wasn't applied, I was just missing. I don't have the most amazing gun-game in the world, obviously, but I do well enough to hit the target.
In this video there are a few slow-mo portions.
One of which is when a random tried to kill me with a Proto Gal Scout and I slowed the clip down to illustrate that I was missing, a lot, before I finally managed to kill him by putting a good portion of my clip into his ankles when he jumped.
Another slowed down bit is against Zatara to show that I was getting ghost hits against him, but later did damage even when no hit indicator was given to signify that I did, in fact, hit him.
Finally, the last slowed down bit is to show how terrible I am with fast-moving targets at elevation. Missed a lot there.
To re-emphasize that I don't think this myth has much weight to it, and I'm not going to spend every waking hour trying to test every little facet that could potentially play into it, I don't think this has anything to do with faulty hit detection. I've only ever had a problem with certain Caldari Scouts, one in particular was Soren Kazaren who I mention by name just because I literally could not kill the guy no matter how hard I tried. This is anecdotal evidence, absolutely, but it helps when I have video evidence to back up my claims.
Figure-8 strafing isn't that big of a deal, wide-arch strafing isn't that big of a deal either; the problem that I have is when they're strafing and I over-compensate for where I think they're going to be and I'm sure that this video demonstrates that rather clearly. To be absolutely 100% clear, I think this is a side effect of players having difficulty compensating for a lack of slow-down effect on bullets as it was taken out in a recent Hotfix.
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Aeon Amadi for CPM1
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6178
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Posted - 2014.07.07 19:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
Oh, in case anyone's interested, here's the test I did with a Minmatar Scout a year ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlZRORUnTDQ
Fairly interesting looking at it now, what with the fact that aiming directly at the target would result in the shot not landing
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Aeon Amadi for CPM1
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6178
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Posted - 2014.07.07 19:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
Grimmiers wrote:That bullet homing aim assist is ridiculous in take 2...
I made a thread about it and it got buried, but I really hope we can make changes to that and try to improve hit detection overall.
Might seem ridiculous but without that and the slow-down effect, hit detection would just be even more miserable. Firefights would be ludicrously long, imo.
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6179
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Posted - 2014.07.07 20:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
Grimmiers wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Grimmiers wrote:That bullet homing aim assist is ridiculous in take 2...
I made a thread about it and it got buried, but I really hope we can make changes to that and try to improve hit detection overall.
Might seem ridiculous but without that and the slow-down effect, hit detection would just be even more miserable. Firefights would be ludicrously long, imo. So are you saying that legion's gunfights will be as bad as dust is with aim assist off? I'm not even saying I want the feature removed if it's good for the game, but I gave up trying to play this game with m/kb (controller still broken...) because of how frustrating it is to even put up an ounce of a fight. If aim assist is disabled why can't it still have the homing bullets? Aim assist is meant to help you aim and the bullets finding the target is part of the hit detection system for dust. It's like there's hit detection assist only for players using controllers with aa on which throws off that balance. I know there were many complaints about this in the past, but I think it's an issue that needs to be touched on within these hotfixes.
Not talking about Legion at all and bringing it up as a comparison point for turning aim assist off is a bit flawed with mouse/keyboard being more precise than the DS3...
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Aeon Amadi for CPM1
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
6179
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Posted - 2014.07.07 21:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tectonic Fusion wrote:Slight ghosts hits yes but other then that all this proves is the strafe aim isn't as effective as CoD's normal aiming system. And use a combat rifle, scrambler rifle, and the rail rifle for testing as well...
Like I said, I'm not investing any more time into this until I get something concrete to go off and test. This is going to turn into one very long, arduous testing session that will likely never end as people search for a reason to believe that something is wrong. I'm willing to test again but only if there's something specific to test, not every single weapon in some desperate attempt to find the pit of the cherry.
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